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Thread: Advice Please.

  1. #1
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    Default Advice Please.

    While looking for orchids this morning I stumbled across a kingfishers nest. I couldn't get that close as there was some trees in the road plus they are up fairly high. I shot these pics in av mode and was wondering would I be better off using M mode so I can set a higher s/s.? The settings were..s/s 1/400, iso 1000, f/ 6.3. It was overcast and it's in the bush.
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    The voices in my head may not be real, but they come up with some great ideas..

    Cheers Rev.

  2. #2
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    Mode will not really help as the exposure to freeze would be the same in all modes regardless.

    I know Fatih shoots with a 7D and he often shoots at ISO1600, that would give you more SS. THe light looks so crap here too Ray so that won't help either. Find which way the hollow faces and wait until the sun hits it at the right time of day. I think the only way you could freeze it and make it look dead natural while it flies out or in is to use a multiple flash set-up triggered by an IR beam and the lens prefocused set to the IR beam so as the bird crosses, bingo. Although, you'd want to eliminate the ugly white sky and not sure how that could happen without a tower hide. I suspect you don't have any of these bits. So I think push the ISO a bit higher, wait for better light and open the aperture right up. Try to not underexpose by too much as at higher ISO the noise would be (I think) more visible even with a 7D.

  3. The following user says thank you to Ákos Lumnitzer for their reply:

    Ray Walker (14-10-2011)

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    Thanks Akos. So I will set the dials at f/5.6, and iso 1600 and let her rip.... I did have the focus preset at the hole, so I might lower that a bit to try and hit the bird while flying out ( boy are they quick). I could hire a cherry picker.. .
    The voices in my head may not be real, but they come up with some great ideas..

    Cheers Rev.

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    Agree with Akos on all fronts Good luck Rev, I've been looking for this situation for a while

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    Also, Ray, don't use the in-between ISO settings on the 7D at any time, would be my advice. As I understand it, the non-professional bodies (1D, 5D) by Canon use some weird algortihm to produce the ISO settings that aren't 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, or 3200 (or possibly 6400 on the 7D). Which can mean that more noise is actually present than using the ISO stop above that is at a full stop setting.
    So not only does ISO 1000 not give as quick a shutter speed, it may also have more noise than 1600.

    Good luck with the kingfishers, and keep us posted
    Familiarity breeds contempt; don't neglect the common birds
    --\\
    ---\\_(j*)>.........Aus Life List: 534 (Northern Royal Albatross - 6/9/14)
    ----\___)................NSW List: 428 (Northern Royal Albatross - 6/9/14)
    ------\ \..............o..2014 List: 348 (Southern Giant Petrel - 6/9/14)

  7. The following user says thank you to Ashy Drongo for their reply:

    Adam Blyth (16-10-2011)

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    Thanks guys. I am going back in the morning, so I will keep you posted.
    The voices in my head may not be real, but they come up with some great ideas..

    Cheers Rev.

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    Highly debated that one Ashy! I've seen some pretty reputable photographers spruik the idea that the 7d has a "native" iso of 160 & therefore multiples of that are less noisy... I have no idea, I keep changing which theory I'm working with!


    Cheers,
    Cameron
    Cheers

    Cameron

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashy Drongo View Post
    Also, Ray, don't use the in-between ISO settings on the 7D at any time, would be my advice. As I understand it, the non-professional bodies (1D, 5D) by Canon use some weird algortihm to produce the ISO settings that aren't 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, or 3200 (or possibly 6400 on the 7D). Which can mean that more noise is actually present than using the ISO stop above that is at a full stop setting.
    So not only does ISO 1000 not give as quick a shutter speed, it may also have more noise than 1600.

    Good luck with the kingfishers, and keep us posted
    Not overly sure I agree with that too. Having used the 7D for a year now, I've got images shot at ISO200 that are noisier than at 640. Plus I've seen some great images with relatively low noise taken at high ISO on the 7D. There is more to getting a noisy or noiseless image than high iso. Perhaps that could be a future subject for Paul at some point.

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    I've got images shot at ISO200 that are noisier than at 640.
    Thats a bit puzzling Mark, might be an exposure/correction issue

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Randall View Post
    Thats a bit puzzling Mark, might be an exposure/correction issue
    Yes that's right, it was underexposed by 2/3 stop. I hinted at that when I said there was more to noise than high ISO, or perhaps I should've elaborated on it. Either way I thought that Ashy's comment without context of exposure wasn't quite right as noise can be dependant on getting the correct exposure, rather than just selecting an intermediate ISO.

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    Thought that might be the case.
    Perhaps that could be a future subject for Paul at some point.
    The exposure compensation thread should go a long way towards covering the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Young View Post
    Not overly sure I agree with that too. Having used the 7D for a year now, I've got images shot at ISO200 that are noisier than at 640. Plus I've seen some great images with relatively low noise taken at high ISO on the 7D. There is more to getting a noisy or noiseless image than high iso. Perhaps that could be a future subject for Paul at some point.
    Yeah, completely agree, exposure has the biggest impact on the final image, however, I'm talking about comparing like with like. ie, if you had all the settings identical, and then just shifted the ISO value, I've read that the 1/3 stops can produce more noise than the whole stops above, as they are produced by the camera's software pushing/pulling the exposure after the image is captured.

    I haven't had any personal experience of this issue, I'm only going off popular internet hearsay. I have also seen a discussion about this very issue on F&P before, although I can't find the thread. And of course, because it doesn't have any specific proof, you hear things the other way. So Cameron, it is entirely possible that the 7D has native 1/3 stop increments - we've each heard different views, and I can't say which is right.

    Overwhelmingly, though, I've heard that Canon's CMOS sensors (7D and down) don't have hardware built in that gives them the sensitivity in increments of 1/3 of a stop. Rather they only have whole stop capability, and that the in between ISOs are produced by taking the nearest whole stop, and then under/over exposing it by 1/3 of a stop to produce an image that looks about right. Hence, in the over-exposing settings (which would be 125, 250, 500, 1000, 2000), more noise can be introduced in to the image, in the same way that lightening an image in post processing can (as Paul showed in this recent post this recent post)

    EDIT: I should add then, that in response to Cameron's reference to 160, 320 640 etc: Given that 125 etc are produced by over exposing the stop below, in theory, 160 etc are produced by underexposing the stop above. Which should not introduce visible noise. So I suppose that the 160 etc set can produce images with less noise than the whole stop above. [/EDIT]

    So I am not an authority on this by any means, I can only spout what I've read on the net. So take with a grain of salt what I've written. But this is what I've heard, and I don't see any particular reason for people to be lying.
    Last edited by Ashy Drongo; 15-10-2011 at 11:30 AM.
    Familiarity breeds contempt; don't neglect the common birds
    --\\
    ---\\_(j*)>.........Aus Life List: 534 (Northern Royal Albatross - 6/9/14)
    ----\___)................NSW List: 428 (Northern Royal Albatross - 6/9/14)
    ------\ \..............o..2014 List: 348 (Southern Giant Petrel - 6/9/14)

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    With the 7D I only use whole stop ISO increments (200,400,800 etc) and control exposure comp with the shutter speed. If I find I am not getting the shutter speed I require for a given situation I will bump up the ISO (in full stop increments) or open up the aperture. But if you're getting good results using ISO 320 or 640 keep doing it, in the end it is all about using the ISO, aperture & shutter speed to get the result you're after.

    The 7D has a lot of pixels packed onto its 1.6 crop sensor. If you under expose you will have a noisy image. So much so that I often deliberately over expose. I would prefer to stuff up an image with blown highlights (and delete it) than keep a mediocre noisy shot. It is not unusual for me to (say) deliberately over-expose by 2/3 of a stop in camera and then the first thing I do in the raw converter is to lower the exposure by 2/3 of a stop. None of this stuff is rocket science.
    Cheers,
    Geoff


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashy Drongo View Post
    Yeah, completely agree, exposure has the biggest impact on the final image, however, I'm talking about comparing like with like. ie, if you had all the settings identical, and then just shifted the ISO value, I've read that the 1/3 stops can produce more noise than the whole stops above, as they are produced by the camera's software pushing/pulling the exposure after the image is captured.

    I haven't had any personal experience of this issue, I'm only going off popular internet hearsay. I have also seen a discussion about this very issue on F&P before, although I can't find the thread. And of course, because it doesn't have any specific proof, you hear things the other way. So Cameron, it is entirely possible that the 7D has native 1/3 stop increments - we've each heard different views, and I can't say which is right.

    Overwhelmingly, though, I've heard that Canon's CMOS sensors (7D and down) don't have hardware built in that gives them the sensitivity in increments of 1/3 of a stop. Rather they only have whole stop capability, and that the in between ISOs are produced by taking the nearest whole stop, and then under/over exposing it by 1/3 of a stop to produce an image that looks about right. Hence, in the over-exposing settings (which would be 125, 250, 500, 1000, 2000), more noise can be introduced in to the image, in the same way that lightening an image in post processing can (as Paul showed in this recent post this recent post)

    EDIT: I should add then, that in response to Cameron's reference to 160, 320 640 etc: Given that 125 etc are produced by over exposing the stop below, in theory, 160 etc are produced by underexposing the stop above. Which should not introduce visible noise. So I suppose that the 160 etc set can produce images with less noise than the whole stop above. [/EDIT]

    So I am not an authority on this by any means, I can only spout what I've read on the net. So take with a grain of salt what I've written. But this is what I've heard, and I don't see any particular reason for people to be lying.
    Thanks for the clarification. If what you wrote here and originally is not from experience, can you at least provide links to where you've read this information about the 7D?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Young View Post
    Thanks for the clarification. If what you wrote here and originally is not from experience, can you at least provide links to where you've read this information about the 7D?
    It's a while since I read around on this issue. I'll have a look, see if I can find something. Sorry I can't be of more help at the moment Mark
    Familiarity breeds contempt; don't neglect the common birds
    --\\
    ---\\_(j*)>.........Aus Life List: 534 (Northern Royal Albatross - 6/9/14)
    ----\___)................NSW List: 428 (Northern Royal Albatross - 6/9/14)
    ------\ \..............o..2014 List: 348 (Southern Giant Petrel - 6/9/14)

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